{"id":1483,"date":"2020-05-10T15:18:13","date_gmt":"2020-05-10T14:18:13","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.balkan-conflicts-research.com\/archive\/?page_id=1483"},"modified":"2020-05-10T15:18:13","modified_gmt":"2020-05-10T14:18:13","slug":"transcript-dr-cees-wiebes-and-chris-stephen-interviewed-by-clive-anderson-on-radio-5-live-october-2004","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/www.balkan-conflicts-research.com\/archive\/transcript-dr-cees-wiebes-and-chris-stephen-interviewed-by-clive-anderson-on-radio-5-live-october-2004\/","title":{"rendered":"Transcript: Dr Cees Wiebes and Chris Stephen interviewed by Clive Anderson on Radio 5 Live, October 2004"},"content":{"rendered":"

DR CEES WIEBES + CHRIS STEPHEN INTERVIEWED BY CLIVE ANDERSON on BBC RADIO 5 LIVE 9 OCTOBER\u00a02004<\/span><\/p>\n

Clive Anderson: \u00a0New light has been cast on this episode by Dr Cees \u00a0<\/span>Wiebes from Amsterdam University\u2019s International Relations Department \u00a0<\/span>which may lend him [Slobodan Milosevic] some support. Dr Wiebes was \u00a0<\/span>commissioned by the Dutch government to look into the intelligence \u00a0<\/span>failings surrounding the fall of Srebrenica and spent five years \u00a0<\/span>researching it.<\/p>\n

Dr Cees Wiebes: In our report, which is about 7,000 pages long, we come \u00a0<\/span>to the conclusion that Milosevic had no foreknowledge of the subsequent \u00a0<\/span>massacres. We did not find evidence in this respect. That doesn\u2019t mean \u00a0<\/span>that there is no evidence but we didn’t find it.<\/p>\n

What we found, however, is evidence to the contrary: Milosevic was very \u00a0<\/span>upset when he learnt about the massacres, we heard this from various \u00a0<\/span>diplomats, and also other witnesses who we interviewed. We also learnt \u00a0<\/span>from another Bosnian Serb person, who went to Milosevic two weeks after \u00a0<\/span>the attack, that Milosevic was very, very angry shouting words like \u00a0<\/span>\u201cWhich idiot ordered these massacres?\u201d<\/p>\n

And it\u2019s understandable because Milosevic in this phase of the war was \u00a0<\/span>looking for a political settlement.\u00a0Various sources inside the Yugoslav Tribunal in the Hague have told me \u00a0<\/span>that investigators in the case of Milosevic asked the prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, to drop the charges, the genocide charges, against Mr \u00a0<\/span>Milosevic regarding Bosnia because they couldn\u2019t find any leads to \u00a0<\/span>Milosevic and the subsequent atrocities.<\/p>\n

Chris Stephen: Well, I\u2019m certainly very surprised to hear that the \u00a0<\/span>prosecutors ignored this report because it\u2019s the most thorough report \u00a0<\/span>about Srebrenica, or perhaps about a war crime, that\u2019s ever been done.<\/p>\n

Clive Anderson: Chris Stephen again who wrote [the book] \u201cJudgement \u00a0<\/span>Day: the trial of Slobodan Milosevic\u201d.<\/p>\n

Chris Stephen: I think he\u2019s [Dr Wiebes] being marginalised because he \u00a0<\/span>will help to destroy the prosecution claim that Milosevic is guilty of \u00a0<\/span>genocide. They spent months and months trying to find people who can \u00a0<\/span>link Milosevic to the crime of genocide in Srebrenica and they\u2019ve come \u00a0<\/span>up with nothing. And they\u2019ve said that he was complicit that he \u00a0<\/span>supported the Serbs, he was giving them ammunition and petrol, but the \u00a0<\/span>way the genocide charge is framed that is not enough.Genocide is a very specific charge. It\u2019s the most serious charge there \u00a0<\/span>is. It\u2019s a charge that was built after Auschwitz and Dachau. It\u2019s for \u00a0<\/span>the really terrible crime not just of extermination but of trying to \u00a0<\/span>wipe out a whole people. And the only place in Bosnia where this was \u00a0<\/span>relevant was Srebrenica and this terrible massacre. So the prosecution, \u00a0<\/span>because I think they feel that Milosevic is the big man he must \u00a0<\/span>therefore face the big charge, they\u2019ve tried to charge him with \u00a0<\/span>genocide. But I think it won\u2019t stick.<\/p>\n

Clive Anderson: We asked the prosecution for an interview to talk about the relevance of Cees Wiebes\u2019 findings and what is called the NIOD \u00a0<\/span>report and his allegations regarding Carla Del Ponte, but they \u00a0<\/span>declined. They did however give us this statement:<\/p>\n

[read by actress] “We have read the report and believe it is not \u00a0<\/span>relevant to the criminal cases we\u2019re conducting at the tribunal. We are \u00a0<\/span>dealing with individual criminals or those who are planning, aiding and \u00a0<\/span>abbetting crimes committed at Srebrenica. The purpose of the NOID [sic] \u00a0<\/span>report was not to deal with criminal cases relating to Srebrenica and \u00a0<\/span>was commissioned by the Dutch government for other purposes.<\/p>\n

Dr Cees Wiebes: For the whole demise of the Former Yugoslavia I think \u00a0<\/span>Mr Milosevic bears big responsibility, but also the other leaders like \u00a0<\/span>Franjo Tudjman of Croatia and Izetbegovic, I mean, all bear a certain \u00a0<\/span>sense of responsibility, I think Mr Milosevic bears the biggest \u00a0<\/span>responsibility, However to portray the Bosnian Muslims as lily-white \u00a0<\/span>and the Serbs as the evils [sic] is simply not true. It\u2019s not a simple black and white picture as regards the Bosnian war. I\u2019ve never seen in \u00a0<\/span>my research so much grey. Of course the killings and the subsequent \u00a0<\/span>murder of 7,000 people is a huge atrocity but other elements are very \u00a0<\/span>much in grey tones. The tribunal in The Hague flies in experts from all \u00a0<\/span>over the world to testify: well, there are ten people in Amsterdam who \u00a0<\/span>did the most extensive research on Srebrenica and the Bosnian war.We were never invited in The Hague – we\u2019re just living around the \u00a0<\/span>corner – and why?<\/p>\n

What I heard from good sources at the tribunal is that Ms Del Ponte \u00a0<\/span>thinks we are too \u201cnuanced\u201d we are not seeing things in black and \u00a0<\/span>white, and good military experts in our team were never consulted.<\/p>\n

Clive Anderson: A recent motion to remove the charge of genocide from \u00a0<\/span>Milosevic\u2019s trial in The Hague was overruled by two judges to one. Of \u00a0<\/span>course Milosevic may use the NIOD report as part of his defence.After the news and sport we will look at the end of Milosevic’s regime \u00a0<\/span>and his legacy.<\/p>\n

This is BBC Radio Five Live on AM, on digital and online.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

DR CEES WIEBES + CHRIS STEPHEN INTERVIEWED BY CLIVE ANDERSON on BBC RADIO 5 LIVE 9 OCTOBER\u00a02004 Clive Anderson: \u00a0New light has been cast on this episode by Dr Cees \u00a0Wiebes from Amsterdam University\u2019s International Relations Department \u00a0which may lend him [Slobodan Milosevic] some support. Dr Wiebes was \u00a0commissioned by the Dutch government to look … <\/p>\n

Continue reading “Transcript: Dr Cees Wiebes and Chris Stephen interviewed by Clive Anderson on Radio 5 Live, October 2004”<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":[],"yoast_head":"\nTranscript: Dr Cees Wiebes and Chris Stephen interviewed by Clive Anderson on Radio 5 Live, October 2004 - Balkan Conflicts Research Team<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.balkan-conflicts-research.com\/archive\/transcript-dr-cees-wiebes-and-chris-stephen-interviewed-by-clive-anderson-on-radio-5-live-october-2004\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_GB\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Transcript: Dr Cees Wiebes and Chris Stephen interviewed by Clive Anderson on Radio 5 Live, October 2004 - Balkan Conflicts Research Team\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"DR CEES WIEBES + CHRIS STEPHEN INTERVIEWED BY CLIVE ANDERSON on BBC RADIO 5 LIVE 9 OCTOBER\u00a02004 Clive Anderson: \u00a0New light has been cast on this episode by Dr Cees \u00a0Wiebes from Amsterdam University\u2019s International Relations Department \u00a0which may lend him [Slobodan Milosevic] some support. 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